Please be advised this story is LONG and detailed. I teach writing, so I get crazy with all the ins and outs of the problem out of habit. My questions are at the bottom.

I have a 2002 Mazda Tribute DX (4cyl, manual trans, 141,000mls). I've had this car since 2003 and just 11,000 miles. We've been through a lot together.

In early January I noticed a metal on metal squeal when I would have my clutch pushed in (disengaged). I took it to three auto shops, all of which said it sounded like it was the throw out bearing. I was referred to two of these places by friends whose opinions I respect. Well, before I could actually make an appointment with one of these places to get the clutch replaced, it went out at a red light, and had to be towed. I towed it to the closest place that was referred to me. I had already gotten a quote, so I felt comfortable with it. Because it was a drop off with no appointment, it took them about four days to get to my car, which I can understand. When they got the tranny out and looked at everything, they said the throw out bearing had basically broken into pieces and the pilot bearing had "disintegrated." This clutch was about five years old and had about 70,000 miles on it. They had it done the next day.

I went in to pick it up and the owner (who is the head mechanic) and mechanic (the man who actually did the work on my car) said that they noticed a chatter in the clutch when going from a dead stop into first or into reverse. When I say chatter, I mean that it shudders. I can't hear anything, I just feel it. I said that never happened on my old clutch. I've been driving stick for 20 years, so I am no novice. They said it may need to be worn in or I might have bad motor mounts. When I drove it home I noticed from the very start a high pitched squeal. This was a new sound. It was similar to the throw out bearing sound, but higher pitched and much louder. I heard it in the cab and when I popped the hood at home it was still there, coming from where the clutch engages with the transmission (in that vicinity anyway).

The next day or so I noticed my heat was not blowing out, so I took it back to the auto shop thinking that that maybe they unhooked a vaccuum line when they were moving the engine or taking out the tranny. The mechanic looked at it (I was not with him, but inside the waiting area). He came to talk to me and said that he saw "several problems." He told me that the high pitched noise I was hearing could be from pieces of the pilot bearing getting into the tranny when it disintegrated. That, he said, would be another expensive fix. What he said next really pissed me off. He said: "The people who put in your last clutch probably did it wrong, that is why you are having issue with it." The last people that did it were my father and brother who rebuild and work on cars all the time and for many years. And that clutch was smooth as butter for five years and 70,000 miles, up until now. It broke because I ride the clutch at lights and in traffic (i am working on this habit). It's ironic he said this considering what happens next.

One of the "several problems" was an antifreeze leak. The mechanic put it back on the lift (he put it on there in the first place because he saw my antifreeze was low), and showed me where the leak was. While we were under the car I noticed that transmission fluid was coating the transmission and drivers side axle. The mechanic hadn't noticed it, and it was a lot of fluid. He was surprised when I showed it to him. He said my axle might be bad and I probably needed to get it replaced.

At that point the owner came out and asked how things were going. The mechanic showed him the trans leak, and the owner said that it was probably the seal and not the axle since the axle was not moving/squeaking. Then I asked about the heat and why it was not working. The mechanic also said that the heat was indeed working. I made him show me because for three days it had not been working. It was blowing somewhere, but it was not blowing through the vents. Sure enough it was working just fine, which I thought was very strange. The owner questioned the mechanic about the consendser unit and the lines, and the mechanic gave answers that were not correct. The owner actually corrected him right in front of me. It was awkward. On a sidenote, one of my friends thinks that the mechanic saw one of the vacuum lines was unplugged when he was filling the antifreeze and just lied about it. I don't want to believe that, but this mechanic certainly was questionable.

Anyway, the owner and the mechanic could not get my car to make the high pitched squeal sound. I drove home, which is a 25 minutes drive. Sure enough when I got home, the car started making that squealing sound again. I do what to add that when I brought the car in that day, I asked the mechanic about the chatter and about the flywheel. He said that the flywheel was resurfaced, but he did not do it. He did not tell me who did it, and I did not ask, which is probably stupid on my part. Earlier, when I called to make the appointment to bring the car in about the squeal and the heater, the owner told me on the phone that they always resurface the flywheel in a clutch job.

Fast forward to a week after the appointment I had about the heater and squeal: The clutch chatter was getting worse, the antifreeze leak was worse, and I had to get that transmission fluid leak fixed. Since the axle seal was broken during the install of the clutch, I assumed it was covered under the labor warranty. I asked the owner about that when I called him to bring the car back in to fix the seal and he got really agitated with me. He said in an old car like mine things like that break and that is not the fault of the mechanic. He cut me a deal for 50 percent off, so I paid less than $50 for the seal replacement. I also asked him to replace that rear motor mount because my engine was really rocking and you could see the motor mount wobbling really bad (I had a few mechanically inclined friends show this to me so I knew the mount was really bad). I ended up paying $220 for the motor mount and seal replacement. The owner gave me the old motor mount. The mechanic also did a pressure check to find the antifreeze leak, and found nothing wrong with the pressure. The owner said he was "perplexed" by it, but did not offer any other answers and didn't try to look for the leak.

Well, the replacement of the motor mount did little to curb the chatter. The squealing sound was still there, but it was intermittent. Intermittent until a few days ago when it just started squealing away. I noticed it would squeal when I was driving and idling, but it would sometimes go away when I pushed in the clutch, which I thought was odd. I decided to take the car to another mechanic (the other one I was referred to by a friend and a lot closer to my house). They found and fixed that antifreeze leak (cracked thermostat casing) right away. When I asked the new mechanic about that squealing sound, they test drove it and they told me the throw out bearing was bad.

Of course, I am not happy with this. I called up the owner of the shop that did my clutch and told him that the high pitched noise was still there and that this new shop told me it was the throw out bearing. I told him the other shop said it could also be a pressure plate issue, or the TOB was rubbing on the fingers. Regardless, it was a clutch problem.

The owner of the shop who did my clutch said that it was a new clutch, that it is probably something else, something worse broken due to how bad the TOB and the pilot bearing were blown. He said they "stand behind their work" and would look at it, but not until next week. He said he "highly, highly" doubted that it was a faulty TOB, because that was "really, really rare." I have my doubts about that as I have had three water pumps and two master cylinders replaced in that car. Faulty parts happen, and I have had my fair share.

Here is my issue (finally, I know). The way the owner of the shop that installed my clutch talked to me about this situation was like it was my fault. He made it sound as if I was the one responsible for blowing out this new TOB even though the high pitched squealing sound was in the car from the moment I started it at their shop after they put the clutch in. I am worried that he is going to come back and tell me that its not the clutch, but instead something in the transmission or something worse. Not only is that high pitched noise more persistent, but my seat and gear shift are vibrating, and my clutch pedal vibrates as well. The clutch pedal has vibrated form the time I got the car back from the clutch repair. I asked them about this when I went in to get the seal replaced, and the owner said it was probably due to the motor mount being bad.

I really need advice on how to talk to the owner of this shop if he does come back and say he is not going to honor the labor/parts warranty. I have a 12 month parts and labor warranty on this clutch install, but, frankly, if they don't fix it right this time, I don't want to bring it back to this shop. If they can't fix it this time, I want a refund, and I will take it to the other shop, the one that fixed my antifreeze leak. So here are my questions:

Is asking for a refund even possible?
What are my rights in this situation?
What would you do/say if you were me?
How do I communicate what I need/want without making him angry?

I don't want conflict, but I don't want to just walk away either. That's a lot of money for nothing. The shop that did my clutch is not part of the BBB, but they do have one unresolved conflict filed against them with the BBB. I read it online. The conflict and comments are very interesting. If I would have seen that conflict report prior to my clutch failure, I would never have taken it there. But since I was referred by a friend, I didn't think about it.

I know this is a long-winded story and if you actually read the whole thing, you are amazing and probably should comment back, regardless of what you think. This is a really stressful situation for me, not having a working car for over a month. I just want it to be over with, but I also want to do it right and not get screwed over. Any constructive feedback is welcome.

Thanks.

Jennifer

 

Jen: I did not have a teachable moment so I only read from "Here is my issue" on down.

You say you don't want a conflict. Well, you have one now.
I'd take it to another shop for diagnosis and repair estimate.
Then I would talk to the repair shop to give them a chance to do right. If they say "scram" I would pull out a copy of the repair estimate and hand it over to them. And I would say a sentence that includes the words "small claims court".

And finally I would like to teach you something about writing: there is a difference between business writing and fiction. In business writing be brief and to the point.

All in good humor of course!

 

Hi Jennifer, welcome to the forum and sorry for your problems.
Believe it or not I did read your story in its entirety and do have some thoughts on the subject.
One question though: Was this a local shop, owned and operated or a corporate one (e.g. Firestone, Good Year, NTB, etc?)
In no particular order they are:
1. NEVER ride the clutch. I know you said you're working on this problem but going through two clutches in that period of time is, well, not good. Perhaps you should be on your second clutch(?), but not third. A good clutch/driver can easily last 150k miles.
2. Riding the clutch not only wears the clutch components but also causes "hot spots" on the flywheel, just as it does in braking components (e.g. rotors, drums and lining.) This could be part of the problem you are experiencing now (chatter.) But more on that later...
3. The mechanic had the flywheel turned, but did not inspect it before reinstalling it? If it had been turned before, or even if not, the hot spots may have been so deep so as turning it again may have taken it past minimal specs. It should have been measured to determine if this is the case. Hot spots are one cause of clutch chatter.
4. If the flywheel is below minimal specs, several other things happen; the first and most important is causing the clutch pressure plate to work harder to clamp the disk. The fingers of the clutch are now extended out beyond what was intended and the TOB may now in constant contact with the fingers causing the noise and premature wear you indicated. The second thing is, should the flywheel become overheated, it will hot spot much faster/easier as there is less material to draw away the heat. But even worse, it could crack, break into pieces or under extreme circumstances, explode. OE flywheels are most often made of sintered iron and are manufactured by heat and pressure to form them.
5. With a 12 year old car, and 141k on the clock, I can believe the axle seals needed to be replaced. They are a 'consumable' part, just as the clutch is. However, a good shop should have noticed this upon removal of the trans and called you to suggest such an upcharge. That said, many of these shops are under a lot of pressure to 'deliver' these days in particular. The simple truth is, the faster they get the work out, the more money they make, and many are under watchful corporate eyes to do just that.
Shops!!
6. Most automotive shops will have some customer service issues. People are passionate about their cars. They're expensive to buy and repair, and people need their vehicles in day-to-day life, and get angry easily when they don't understand something... and there are a lot of things to understand in modern cars. Keep this in mind from the mechanics POV as well... a possible anger disarming point.
7. I feel your pain about taking your car back to the same shop. As I was reading your story, I felt the same way. From what you've written here, I'm not sure they, the owner and especially the mechanic are being totally up front with you, or themselves. I've worked in the business in the past and believe me that there is often a lot of ego involved. There are many that 'think' they know all there is to know and don't, but will defend their honor to the death. (<<< Figure of speech only.) It sounds to me like the owner is getting defensive over what he knows or suspects are their oversights, or mistakes. Owners and service writers get this all day long. Some "assume the position" better than others. Some lash out and become angry or defensive. It's NOT a nice job, believe me. It's stressful to say the least.
Rights, Refunds and Anger:
8. Well, as far as your rights go you may have to seek counsel from an attorney for this one. They usually go state by state, so yours may be different than anyone else's here.
9. The owner 'might' refund some or all of the labor (long shot,) but as for the parts, chances are unless they were defective in the first place you will owe full on those.
10. You've already expressed that the owner has gotten defensive with you in the past, so getting angry is likely part of the deal now.
11. Getting a lawyer involved may be your best defense under the circumstances. Simply putting up a complaint on the BBB site, of which this shop is not a member anyway, will do you no good. The BBB protects and promotes itself, not the customer. It certainly sounds like you took away more problems than you went in with.
12. Discuss that the car has more (and different) problems now than when it came in and that you are concerned about the mechanic's abilities(?) or let a lawyer do that for you. You may have to take the shop to small claims court in the end, but you will have to be able to prove the incompetence.

That they apparently broke, didn't notice and could not find the thermostat housing, and leaky trans seals would be a concern for me too. And worse, they let you take the car and drive it that way!! That's sloppy work, IMO, and basic too. This shop owner must know by now that he will never see you again, but does he want you talking bad to others about his shop or does he want to make you happy?

I think I've touched on most/all of your points, and to the best of my ability. I hope you can take some of this away and use it to help resolve these issues.

 

Thanks, Virgin1. I appreciate your time and energy in replying to this situation. This was a locally owned shop. It's been around since 2010, I think. It has a B- rating by the BBB for unresolved complaints. It is not a member. The cost to do the clutch was half of what Firestone, my regular garage, was going to charge. Firestone quoted me $1300 for the clutch install, which I thought was crazy. Then again, they probably were pricing a clutch and flywheel from the dealership.

So, in your opinion, considering what you know, should I even take it back to this shop or just move on to another shop? Even given the warranty, I wonder if it is even worth the stress. I have an appointment to take the car back to the shop that intalled my clutch next Wednesday, but I may be able to take it to the new shop, which is closer to me, even sooner. I feel better about this new shop. I trust them a lot more. Afterall, they did find that antifreeze leak fast and were able to determine the cause of the squeal in less than 30 minutes while the old shop didn't bother to try. It's cleaner, and seems more professional. The shop I took it too for my clutch repair is very dirty, and the waiting room smells strongly of exhaust fumes. I couldn't stay in very long. Plus, my car interior reeked of exhaust fumes for a week after I go the car back the first time. It was terrible. I know these are surface issues, but appearances matter.

I am definitely not riding the clutch anymore. I have pretty much successfully retrained myself not to do that. I know that the clutch failure was definitely because of my bad habits. I can't believe I've been driving like that for so long and was unaware that I was really tearing up my car. It's been a learning experience for sure.

 

Bah! I totally hear this! I thought about my huge post this morning and how I should have created a five-sentence summary of my issues and questions and then said, "If you want the full-length narrative, read the novel below."

I teach business writing, too. Brevity is your best friend. Clearly, I mixed genres here.

 

Stay away from shops like, "Firestone!!" They are the rip-off palaces of the automotive industry. Their managers, and of others shops like them, are under extreme stress to produce the $$$ and often don't care how they do it. (I could tell you stories...) They are corporate owned and you'll pay a premium every time you go in there. Try to stay away from such places, especially with a 12 yr old vehicle.
As for the rest, well I think TanProtege got it right. Take it to another shop and have it 'evaluated.' Get an estimate, then take it to the first shop with the information in hand. But don't show your cards right away. If none of that works, get a lawyer.
Either way I think you'll be in for a fight.

 

^^^^
I am glad you took this well. And I see Virgin1 has taken up your questions. You are in great hands with him. I'll watch form the distance.

 

Thank you both for your recommendations. My plan is to keep the Wednesday appointment. However, beforehand I will go to the new shop and get them to create an estimate for me so I will have it on hand if needed. I will see what they say on Wednesday. One thing is for certain, this shop is not getting any more of my money. I will keep you up to date as to what happens.

 

Cool!
Yeah, you should at least give them the opportunity to make things right. And perhaps tempers will have cooled down a bit by then too.

 

I couldn't read past 1/3,let alone Virgin1's reply. I'm quite surprised he took out a lot of time for a good response. You are in capable hands.

I personally like looking at pictures or making them! Here's 2 I made and some fun ones attached for shts and giggles.

Gonna watch 1st race of NASCAR. Tonight is Truck race, tomorrow afternoon is Nationwide series race and Sunday afternoon is the big Sprint series Daytona 500!