diy short ram intake
#21
02-05-2011, 08:08 PM
Myth wow, ok well i'm going to pull a you here and list off sources that clam that this is not a myth and misrepresentation of products not to mention sellers claims to improvements. Granted you CAN and with your apparently non-arguable evidence, sue the seller for these claims. Even if the manufacture of these products may not claim them, the seller does. and if the seller willingly knows that these products yield no benefits but in all reality taxing the engine then that is misrepresentation of the product and failing to comply with "truth in advertising" laws.
Much of the precedent cited in these cases stemmed from Chapter 15 of the U.S. Code, specifically a law known as the Lanham Act. Under Title VIII of the Act, titled False Designations of Origin and False Descriptions Forbidden3, any person responsible for misrepresenting goods and services is liable in a civil action brought by persons who believe that they are damaged by such acts. According to the act, people are liable of misrepresentation if their statements or actions are "likely to cause confusion, or to cause a mistake, or to deceive a to the affiliation, connection, or association of such person with another person, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval, of his or her goods, services, or commercial activities by another person."4
The aforementioned section came from http://www.princeton.edu/~lawjourn/Spring98/cheng.html
Much of the precedent cited in these cases stemmed from Chapter 15 of the U.S. Code, specifically a law known as the Lanham Act. Under Title VIII of the Act, titled False Designations of Origin and False Descriptions Forbidden3, any person responsible for misrepresenting goods and services is liable in a civil action brought by persons who believe that they are damaged by such acts. According to the act, people are liable of misrepresentation if their statements or actions are "likely to cause confusion, or to cause a mistake, or to deceive a to the affiliation, connection, or association of such person with another person, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval, of his or her goods, services, or commercial activities by another person."4
The aforementioned section came from http://www.princeton.edu/~lawjourn/Spring98/cheng.html
The thing is, all of this is beside the point. Not a single manufacturer of CAIs that I've been able to find even hint at an improvement in fuel economy.
K&N claims that Estimated Horsepower Gain: 5.74 HP @ 4764 RPM
and that
Horsepower estimate claims are the result of specific or similar vehicle dynamometer testing. It would be impractical to test every possible vehicle configuration or year in which a particular engine may be used; in these cases, our claims are representational based upon similar engine/vehicle dyno tests. Based upon our engineering experience, we believe our estimated horsepower claims are reliable. (ok so this may be a CYA policy but they misrepresent by not telling you the negative effect of tq and fuel economy which by law could be defined as "hurting" the car and therefore are liable.)((Also to mention that products such as these could be considered "confusing" at the fact that if a consumer were to personally dyno their car after a CAI install and saw a loss in tq and were it was not represented by K&N could also be liable.
AEM Claims on their intakes that:
http://www.aemintakes.com/air_intakes.htm
A cold air intake system relocates the filter outside of the engine compartment to deliver cool air inlet temperatures. Cooler air carries more oxygen, which translates into a more intense explosion in the combustion chamber to create more horsepower and torque. But that's only part of the power equation. Tuning the inlet pipe in length and diameter to match the engine's resonance helps move more air to the cylinders (think of your engine as a big air pump), and this tuning allows us to deliver large power gains. We also monitor fuel trim correction factors and all OBDII sensors during product development to eliminate leaning the engine out and/or throwing a check engine light. (This to you is blatantly impossible due to combustion physics and/or is a gross misrepresentation of their product. Again which they could be held liable for)
and that
Horsepower estimate claims are the result of specific or similar vehicle dynamometer testing. It would be impractical to test every possible vehicle configuration or year in which a particular engine may be used; in these cases, our claims are representational based upon similar engine/vehicle dyno tests. Based upon our engineering experience, we believe our estimated horsepower claims are reliable. (ok so this may be a CYA policy but they misrepresent by not telling you the negative effect of tq and fuel economy which by law could be defined as "hurting" the car and therefore are liable.)((Also to mention that products such as these could be considered "confusing" at the fact that if a consumer were to personally dyno their car after a CAI install and saw a loss in tq and were it was not represented by K&N could also be liable.
AEM Claims on their intakes that:
http://www.aemintakes.com/air_intakes.htm
A cold air intake system relocates the filter outside of the engine compartment to deliver cool air inlet temperatures. Cooler air carries more oxygen, which translates into a more intense explosion in the combustion chamber to create more horsepower and torque. But that's only part of the power equation. Tuning the inlet pipe in length and diameter to match the engine's resonance helps move more air to the cylinders (think of your engine as a big air pump), and this tuning allows us to deliver large power gains. We also monitor fuel trim correction factors and all OBDII sensors during product development to eliminate leaning the engine out and/or throwing a check engine light. (This to you is blatantly impossible due to combustion physics and/or is a gross misrepresentation of their product. Again which they could be held liable for)
For the record, my comments have been limited to the following:
- The installation of a CAI on any given engine MAY allow the engine to develop a few extra horsepower at wide-open-throttle when the engine is operating in the upper extreme of its designed power range.
- The installation of a CAI on any given engine will most likely offset any top-end gains by a commensurate loss in mid-range torque.
- The installation of a CAI on any given engine will not under any circumstances improve fuel economy.
- The installation of a CAI on any given engine may well lead to a loss in fuel economy when the OAT drops below 40°F; the further below that point, the greater the loss in fuel economy versus an unmodified engine.
#22
02-06-2011, 02:29 PM
As much as I'm appreciating this debate we've strayed away from the original topic. N I have a new question to ask about exhaust systems. Specifically the tsudo N1 exhaust sys. Good? Bad? Opinions?
#23
02-06-2011, 02:38 PM
1.) I will over power you in law every time. Actually, to what you said, is very easy to get around. Have you ever noticed websites trying to claim something they actually have a link designated to testimonials/claims/reviews etc? Why? Because they have to by law. ANY given claim on a website that is NOT under a testimonial section or has something like, "this previous review/testimonial/claim does not reflect the views of our company and we are in no way affiliated to the person and they DO NOT represent our products/services in any way" (anything basically states, you cant use this review/claim/testimonial against us just in case your product doesn't work exactly like this persons review) right after it are solely the responsibility of the advertiser/company/seller
AEM claims what i posted with out any testimonial or basically says "hey, we had no idea this was up here and we really don't believe that and it was some customer that says this about our products." NOR does K&N, Injen, Fujita are the ones that I checked.
2.)to quote you, "Now, if you come across a web site from a manufacturer of CAIs that says something like, "Our CAI will improve your fuel economy by 10%...", then you'll have found a site that is claiming something I claim is "blatantly impossible""
- My friend, just look at ANY intake, on ANY car, boat, plane, motorcycle, transportation medium that uses any non-carb internal combustion engine with an intake and a air filter on ebay and you will find what you are looking for. I can almost promise that you will find >90% of these seller claims an MPG increase WITHOUT saying, "hey a customer told us this so we are to slap it up on our site" and remember because they don't, they are liable for it.
3.) This point of this discussion has now moved from MPG increase to HP and TQ increase that sellers claim to have as well on their products. Like the ones Ive mentioned before K&N and AEM both claim to have HP increase at an exact specific point on the RPM band. This is also their sales tactic. Basically, "we are going to tell you where you actually make power but we are going to keep out where your HP/TQ/MPG actually suffer in other portions of the RPM band." Who can blame them. I seriously doubt that will sell many intakes if they should and actually claim with out grossly misrepresenting their products by stating, "our intakes will provide you with 5.74 HP @ 4764 RPM and a loss of ~2-3 ft/lbs of torque and a loss of ~2-3 MPG throughout the rest of the RPM band"
4.) Most, if not all "legal" sections of these sellers that we have mentioned pretty much just states that, "hey we are not responsible for your car due to negligence"
Oh, and, no product you buy, I don't care what it is, says that you cant sue us if this doesn't work or hurts you and that you waive your right to a trial by jury, WITHOUT singing something that says, "hey you just waived your right to a trial by jury" btw, this actually has to be signed in the state of Missouri and can not be just given to you in the "EULA/T&C" section
5.) Finally, even though i am a pre law minor, I decided to ask a lawyer about this, and I'm quoting this from memory but, "Misrepresenting a product or service on the business's end is not a claim to due negligence on the consumer end. The facts were not fully laid out in front of them and therefore could be considered deceptive practices from the business." and because no where on any website states that:
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine MAY allow the engine to develop a few extra horsepower at wide-open-throttle when the engine is operating in the upper extreme of its designed power range.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will most likely offset any top-end gains by a commensurate loss in mid-range torque.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will not under any circumstances improve fuel economy.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine may well lead to a loss in fuel economy when the OAT drops below 40°F; the further below that point, the greater the loss in fuel economy versus an unmodified engine.
means that all the facts are not laid out on the table and that because they decided to leave out extremely relevant information about their products means that they are engaging in deceptive selling practices and therefore are liable. At this point it could be on anything whether it be MPG/TQ/HP.
AEM claims what i posted with out any testimonial or basically says "hey, we had no idea this was up here and we really don't believe that and it was some customer that says this about our products." NOR does K&N, Injen, Fujita are the ones that I checked.
2.)to quote you, "Now, if you come across a web site from a manufacturer of CAIs that says something like, "Our CAI will improve your fuel economy by 10%...", then you'll have found a site that is claiming something I claim is "blatantly impossible""
- My friend, just look at ANY intake, on ANY car, boat, plane, motorcycle, transportation medium that uses any non-carb internal combustion engine with an intake and a air filter on ebay and you will find what you are looking for. I can almost promise that you will find >90% of these seller claims an MPG increase WITHOUT saying, "hey a customer told us this so we are to slap it up on our site" and remember because they don't, they are liable for it.
3.) This point of this discussion has now moved from MPG increase to HP and TQ increase that sellers claim to have as well on their products. Like the ones Ive mentioned before K&N and AEM both claim to have HP increase at an exact specific point on the RPM band. This is also their sales tactic. Basically, "we are going to tell you where you actually make power but we are going to keep out where your HP/TQ/MPG actually suffer in other portions of the RPM band." Who can blame them. I seriously doubt that will sell many intakes if they should and actually claim with out grossly misrepresenting their products by stating, "our intakes will provide you with 5.74 HP @ 4764 RPM and a loss of ~2-3 ft/lbs of torque and a loss of ~2-3 MPG throughout the rest of the RPM band"
4.) Most, if not all "legal" sections of these sellers that we have mentioned pretty much just states that, "hey we are not responsible for your car due to negligence"
Oh, and, no product you buy, I don't care what it is, says that you cant sue us if this doesn't work or hurts you and that you waive your right to a trial by jury, WITHOUT singing something that says, "hey you just waived your right to a trial by jury" btw, this actually has to be signed in the state of Missouri and can not be just given to you in the "EULA/T&C" section
5.) Finally, even though i am a pre law minor, I decided to ask a lawyer about this, and I'm quoting this from memory but, "Misrepresenting a product or service on the business's end is not a claim to due negligence on the consumer end. The facts were not fully laid out in front of them and therefore could be considered deceptive practices from the business." and because no where on any website states that:
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine MAY allow the engine to develop a few extra horsepower at wide-open-throttle when the engine is operating in the upper extreme of its designed power range.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will most likely offset any top-end gains by a commensurate loss in mid-range torque.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will not under any circumstances improve fuel economy.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine may well lead to a loss in fuel economy when the OAT drops below 40°F; the further below that point, the greater the loss in fuel economy versus an unmodified engine.
means that all the facts are not laid out on the table and that because they decided to leave out extremely relevant information about their products means that they are engaging in deceptive selling practices and therefore are liable. At this point it could be on anything whether it be MPG/TQ/HP.
#24
02-06-2011, 04:02 PM
1.) I will over power you in law every time. Actually, to what you said, is very easy to get around. Have you ever noticed websites trying to claim something they actually have a link designated to testimonials/claims/reviews etc? Why? Because they have to by law. ANY given claim on a website that is NOT under a testimonial section or has something like, "this previous review/testimonial/claim does not reflect the views of our company and we are in no way affiliated to the person and they DO NOT represent our products/services in any way" (anything basically states, you cant use this review/claim/testimonial against us just in case your product doesn't work exactly like this persons review) right after it are solely the responsibility of the advertiser/company/seller
AEM claims what i posted with out any testimonial or basically says "hey, we had no idea this was up here and we really don't believe that and it was some customer that says this about our products." NOR does K&N, Injen, Fujita are the ones that I checked.
AEM claims what i posted with out any testimonial or basically says "hey, we had no idea this was up here and we really don't believe that and it was some customer that says this about our products." NOR does K&N, Injen, Fujita are the ones that I checked.
2.)to quote you, "Now, if you come across a web site from a manufacturer of CAIs that says something like, "Our CAI will improve your fuel economy by 10%...", then you'll have found a site that is claiming something I claim is "blatantly impossible""
- My friend, just look at ANY intake, on ANY car, boat, plane, motorcycle, transportation medium that uses any non-carb internal combustion engine with an intake and a air filter on ebay and you will find what you are looking for. I can almost promise that you will find >90% of these seller claims an MPG increase WITHOUT saying, "hey a customer told us this so we are to slap it up on our site" and remember because they don't, they are liable for it.
- My friend, just look at ANY intake, on ANY car, boat, plane, motorcycle, transportation medium that uses any non-carb internal combustion engine with an intake and a air filter on ebay and you will find what you are looking for. I can almost promise that you will find >90% of these seller claims an MPG increase WITHOUT saying, "hey a customer told us this so we are to slap it up on our site" and remember because they don't, they are liable for it.
3.) This point of this discussion has now moved from MPG increase to HP and TQ increase that sellers claim to have as well on their products. Like the ones Ive mentioned before K&N and AEM both claim to have HP increase at an exact specific point on the RPM band. This is also their sales tactic. Basically, "we are going to tell you where you actually make power but we are going to keep out where your HP/TQ/MPG actually suffer in other portions of the RPM band." Who can blame them. I seriously doubt that will sell many intakes if they should and actually claim with out grossly misrepresenting their products by stating, "our intakes will provide you with 5.74 HP @ 4764 RPM and a loss of ~2-3 ft/lbs of torque and a loss of ~2-3 MPG throughout the rest of the RPM band"
I responded to that statement by saying, "Absolutely, positively impossible. There is no way any of the mods you made to your car will yield even a .0001% improvement in fuel economy."
While I believe virtually manufacturer greatly exaggerates amount and effect of the horsepower improvements brought about by their CAIs, I don't deny (nor have I ever) that there are a few extra ponies able to be squeezed out by using one of these products. That said, IMHO, the loss of mid range torque and the high probability of a loss in fuel economy when driving in cold weather offset any gains.
4.) Most, if not all "legal" sections of these sellers that we have mentioned pretty much just states that, "hey we are not responsible for your car due to negligence"
Oh, and, no product you buy, I don't care what it is, says that you cant sue us if this doesn't work or hurts you and that you waive your right to a trial by jury, WITHOUT singing something that says, "hey you just waived your right to a trial by jury" btw, this actually has to be signed in the state of Missouri and can not be just given to you in the "EULA/T&C" section
Oh, and, no product you buy, I don't care what it is, says that you cant sue us if this doesn't work or hurts you and that you waive your right to a trial by jury, WITHOUT singing something that says, "hey you just waived your right to a trial by jury" btw, this actually has to be signed in the state of Missouri and can not be just given to you in the "EULA/T&C" section
5.) Finally, even though i am a pre law minor, I decided to ask a lawyer about this, and I'm quoting this from memory but, "Misrepresenting a product or service on the business's end is not a claim to due negligence on the consumer end. The facts were not fully laid out in front of them and therefore could be considered deceptive practices from the business." and because no where on any website states that:
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine MAY allow the engine to develop a few extra horsepower at wide-open-throttle when the engine is operating in the upper extreme of its designed power range.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will most likely offset any top-end gains by a commensurate loss in mid-range torque.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will not under any circumstances improve fuel economy.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine may well lead to a loss in fuel economy when the OAT drops below 40°F; the further below that point, the greater the loss in fuel economy versus an unmodified engine.
means that all the facts are not laid out on the table and that because they decided to leave out extremely relevant information about their products means that they are engaging in deceptive selling practices and therefore are liable. At this point it could be on anything whether it be MPG/TQ/HP.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine MAY allow the engine to develop a few extra horsepower at wide-open-throttle when the engine is operating in the upper extreme of its designed power range.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will most likely offset any top-end gains by a commensurate loss in mid-range torque.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine will not under any circumstances improve fuel economy.
* The installation of a CAI on any given engine may well lead to a loss in fuel economy when the OAT drops below 40°F; the further below that point, the greater the loss in fuel economy versus an unmodified engine.
means that all the facts are not laid out on the table and that because they decided to leave out extremely relevant information about their products means that they are engaging in deceptive selling practices and therefore are liable. At this point it could be on anything whether it be MPG/TQ/HP.
The thing is, all of the noise you're presented us with to try and justify why you believe a CAI will improve fuel economy is just that, noise. There is plenty of science out there that proves this point beyond a shadow of a doubt; that you called the reading of an extremely well written dissertation on the subject a "waste of time" does not in any way diminish the validity of said dissertation.
I know it isn't in the typical mindset of a lawyer (even a lawyer in training) to admit they've got it wrong, but the best lawyers I know are willing to examine the viewpoints of the experts in the field and at least try to wrap their minds around what they are being taught. You might want to try it some time.
Last edited by shipo; 02-06-2011 at 04:05 PM.
#28
02-07-2011, 02:33 PM
Thanks guys! The whole thing was just getting a little too heated and technical.
And to add my own reply, I still haven't checked out the websites of these companies, but know I heard and/or seen it written/said somewhere that CAI's/SRI's help increase fuel mileage. Horsepower TV and a few other shows make it "known" all the time. First mod is always a CAI or SRI. 'Course I'm sure they are given the parts to use for advertising reasons and probably to say only good things about them too.
Again, my own experience does not bear that out. I saw no change one way or the other.
